Rich & Ava's Perspectives

So are you saying that children can learn through words? That no spanking or any other kinds of physical strike punishment needed?

When I was a kiddo, my parent(mom) used to spank me when I did something very wrong and yes after getting punished my mom explains why did she punished me, yet sometimes I don't understand and I always think that "why'd you need to spank me, when we can just talk about it?" but in later days, I realized that even with spanking, I still keep on repeating the same mistakes but I realized that maybe without spanking, I am even worse.

For me, spanking is like a mark (not physically) that reminds me to know the dos and the don'ts.

Now am nearly 20, and I can say that, am in good shape, I got good grades, very nice job and living alone with my dog in a clean white condominium.

busymomofseven:
I think in your case, you have a very wonderful son/daughter that doesn't require spanking or any physical contact punishment.

But again, not all are have the same son/daughter attitude.

Like what I said:
SPANK if you NEED to and DON'T if you DON'T have to.

"So are you saying that children can learn through words? That no spanking or any other kinds of physical strike punishment needed?"

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

"I realized that even with spanking, I still keep on repeating the same mistakes but I realized that maybe without spanking, I am even worse."

Or maybe your parents could have used other methods rather than simply talking with or without spanking? What you described is not a very effective discipline method either way. Training a child with "words" does not just mean "explaining" what they did wrong. It can also involve discussing the situation, asking your child to help you brainstorm ideas on how he can correct the current situation and how he can do it differently next time. Just hitting a child and hoping that the fear of punishment is somehow going to help them come up with better alternatives is just not an effective method. It does not TEACH them anything other than to find ways to get around punishment... things like lying, sneaking, cheating, whatever it takes to avoid the punishment and still do what they want. Once the threat of punishment is removed, there is no motivation to follow the rules. Why do you think so many people break the speed limit? They are convinced that they will not be caught, so the real reason for not speeding is ignored. (little things like safety and not getting into an accident) Punishments focus the attention on YOU rather than on OTHERS... when a child is spanked, they are not worrying about how their behavior may have effected someone else, they are thinking about how much THEY hurt and how they want to avoid getting hurt in the future. Not the right motivation for following the rules. I want my child to obey the speed limit because he is aware that speeding can cause someone to get hurt, not just himself, but others on the road with him. Same with drinking and driving, not stealing, not cheating on his wife or on his taxes. The Bible says "love does no harm to it's neighbor, therefore LOVE is the fulfillment of the law". It's not about forcing a child to do what is right out of fear he will be caught and punished, but instilling a deep love for God, which will manifest itself as a love for others. If you love others, you will not steal from them, lie to them, or hurt them. THIS is the motivation I want to teach my child, not self-preservation. They may look the same on the outside, but God looks at your heart, not your actions.

"For me, spanking is like a mark (not physically) that reminds me to know the dos and the don'ts."

Jesus is the one who bears the marks for sin... if you are focused on him and his marks, you won't need to worry about having marks of your own.

"busymomofseven:
I think in your case, you have a very wonderful son/daughter that doesn't require spanking or any physical contact punishment."

When I read this to my husband, he laughed hysterically. :-P Hon, I have seven children, not an angel among them. Two with ADHD, one diagnosed with bi-polar, two high needs, one with medical issues. I do not have one quiet, compliant child in my bunch. This is not about hitting a child because they are not naturally compliant, this is about treating ALL children the way God tells us to treat each other.

"Now am nearly 20, and I can say that, am in good shape, I got good grades, very nice job and living alone with my dog in a clean white condominium."

But is this the standard God looks at to tell if a parenting method was "good" or not? God is not "outcome-oriented"... he's not worried about the outward behavior of a child and making them appear "good" to the rest of the world. God is far more interested in reaching the HEART of every child, because unless you do that, all the rest of it is worthless. All our "good works" are like filthy rags to God if they are not motivated by a heart full of his love.

" If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. " 1 Cor. 13: 1-3

Basically, you can be as outwardly pious and successful as Mother Theresa and God is just not impressed if it is not motivated by love.

"Like what I said:
SPANK if you NEED to and DON'T if you DON'T have to."

There is NEVER a time when you NEED to physically hit a child as a form of discipline... EVER. There are ALWAYS alternatives. Spanking is a *choice*, whether it is the first tool used to obtain compliance or a last resort of a parent who has run out of ideas. It is never a "need". No child ever NEEDS to be spanked, just like no woman ever "needs" to be slapped by her spouse, no elderly person never "needs" to be smacked by a caregiver, no mentally challenged person "needs" to be smacked by their parent or caregiver. If people can handle the needs and behaviors of every other person in society without resorting to physical violence, then it makes absolutely no sense to hit a CHILD, who is less than half your size and cannot defend themselves or ask for help. Even dog trainers will tell you that it is no longer considered acceptable to hit a dog as a method of training it. It gives poor results and breaks the bond of trust that should exist between a dog and it's owner/handler.

Spanking is nothing more than a method of modifying outward behavior through the threat of pain. That is just not a good basis for a parenting method.

and we don't need biblical support for such commonsense things :)

Since when is physical violence towards children "common sense"? At one time the exact same type of physical violence towards women was considered "common sense", since women were seen as weak minded and not able to think for themselves. (which was why they were not considered competent enough to vote) A man was supposed to "discipline" his wife as if she were a child, including hitting her if he deemed it appropriate. It has only been in the past few generations that this kind of "common sense" has been challenged.

We cannot hit the elderly, we cannot hit the mentally challenged, we cannot hit our pets... why is it "common sense" to hit a child?

**I dont read my bible that much, so yea, I wont be stating any biblical terms.**
-----

Those who are against spanking does not separate spanking from beating.

Meaning: An open-handed single "swat" to a child is not the same thing as a closed fist to the face.

Heres a senario:
Lets say, you saw your son playing with fire.
Of course the first thing you'll do is to put off the fire. Then what will happen next?

Is it:
A) Tell your son "Son, promise me not to do that again okay?"
Then he'll reply "OK Mommy! It will never happen again. I promise!" (true, it wont happen again for some several days.)

B) Tell your son "GO TO YOUR ROOM!! You're grounded for 2 weeks and you cant play any outdoor games!!" (LOL he can still sit with his imaginary friend and start to play fire in his room)

C) Spank your son and tell him "Dont you ever do that again! You understand? (shout or roar)"
(This would probably scare him off not to repeat the same mistake again and scary moments last for a long period of time but at least you did a job well-done. Oh dont worry, he wont run away from home.)

D) Beat-up your son and tell him the same thing in "LETTER C" but this time, YES they are scared... frighten.. or even he'll get traumatized that would last for rest of his life which is bad.

Believe me, spanking your son is not the same thing as murdering your son. Everyone needs to learn discipline. Of course, you can learn it, with or without spanking moments but not all are the same.

PS:
Spare the rod. Spoil the brat.

"Those who are against spanking does not separate spanking from beating."

I would almost laugh, if this were not so incredibly sad. The Bible says BEAT... not "swat", not "tap", not "hit gently with an open hand". If you are going to say that God says to do this, then you would think you would actually do what you say you believe. Either he means BEAT or he doesn't.... which is it? Or is God getting a bit soft in his old age? Maybe he doesn't really mean "beat" anymore? Or maybe these scriptures are being misrepresented? I'm guessing it's the latter.

The scenarios you presented are all poor examples of parenting.

A. is permissive or weak parenting. No teaching is happening, therefore no lesson is learned.
B. is ineffective parenting. Again, no teaching is occurring, only an attempt to make the child feel bad by imposing an unrelated "consequence" so he hopefully won't repeat the offending behavior.
C. is bullying. You are trying to make the child so afraid of being hit by you that he will not repeat the unwanted behavior. Once again, no instruction is occurring, and it may or may not deliver the desired effects.
D. is outright abuse. No lesson is taught, and the child is also emotionally and mentally scarred.

Would you like to know how fire safety professionals would handle this scenario? The child is given fire safety classes where they are taught about fire, how it works, how easily it can get out of hand, and what can happen if this occurs. In more extreme cases, they are shown videos of children who were seriously injured because they played with fire, and some of kids who ended up in jail and how it effected their lives as they got older. They are taught how to use fire responsibly and what to do if they see someone else playing with fire. They are asked to write essays about fire safety to be sure they are absorbing the information that is being presented. THIS is teaching, it is giving the child the information they need to make better decisions, because believe it or not, most children who play with fire are NOT trying to hurt anyone or burn something down. MOST of them are just curious about what will happen, and do not have a clear idea of the actual consequences of their actions. This kind of fire-safety training gives far superior results to anything you just suggested.

NOWHERE in this scenario is physically assaulting the child part of the teaching process. All spanking does is teach self-preservation, it does not teach responsible behavior.

Spanking a child is not the same as murdering a child... but it is not an appropriate way to treat a human being of any age.

The four scenarios you presented are EXACTLY why we are seeing the results everyone is complaining about.... people need to learn how to parent effectively without resorting to begging, threatening, or physically bullying a child into doing what they want. There are many effective methods of discipline that can be tailored to fit any child, but unfortunately most people are not aware of them... as your post so clearly illustrates.

The answer is not hitting our children, it is learning how to be better parents.

Thumbs up!

Just spank if you have to and don't if you think that you don't have to.

You may want to look into those scriptures a little deeper. Try adding those to this one:
But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Isa. 53:5

Are you are saying that children are somehow exempt from this verse? Why are adults not subjected to the punishments in the Old Testament as well? "A whip for the horse, a halter for the donkey, and a rod for the backs of fools!" Prov. 26:3 This is talking about adults, not children. Why must children be physically hit for their sins, but adults enjoy God's grace? There is no biblical support for hitting a child. Even the verses in Proverbs are symbolic, something that is easily determined by the use of phrasing... "rod of correction" indicates that CORRECTION is the "rod"... not a literal, physical rod. Otherwise, the verse that states "though you beat him, he will not die" is completely false. There are specific punishments in the OT law for people who beat their servants to death with a rod, illustrating that death was a definite possibility when using a literal rod for punishment. For the verse in Proverbs to be true, it HAS to be referring to something other than physical punishment. I would urge you to study this more closely. I also used to believe the way you do, and I parented that way for more than 10 years. It was not until I had my beliefs challenged that I took the time to really study these scriptures, and I could not find the biblical support for spanking I had believed was there. Spanking is a modern cultural practice that is not mentioned or even alluded to in scripture. I have since found that non-punitive methods line up much more closely to the teachings of the New Testament dealing with Grace, forgiveness and how we are to treat others. There is no mention of physical punishment even for adults in the New Testament. Try reading Romans 6, with the understanding that your children are also your brothers and sisters in Christ. Basically, it asks if we should continue to sin just because we no longer have to fear punishment? (the law is what determines punishment)... No, we should choose to avoid sin because it is harmful to us, not because we are afraid God will punish us if we do. If God does not physically punish us as adults when we sin intentionally, it does not make sense to physically hit a child, who is not yet old enough to comprehend the concept of sin, much less intentionally sin themselves. God takes a pretty dim view of this kind of judgmental behavior. "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. " Rom. 2:1 ""Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. " Matt. 7:1-2 If you want to punish your child, just be sure that you treat them the same way you want God to treat you. One last scripture to consider... Matt. 18:21-35 the parable of the unforgiving servant. He was forgiven for a huge debt and his well-deserved punishment was waived. Then he found someone who had committed a much smaller offense against him and demanded the full punishment allowed by law. How did the king respond to this man? God does not discipline us through punishments, he does it by his Word and his Spirit in our hearts. So how do you think he expects us to treat "the least of these"?

Just some things to think about from someone who has been there.

Matt. 7:1-2 If you want to punish your child, just be sure that you treat them the same way you want God to treat you.

I believe that God also spanks us though not actually, coz He can't do that since His know in Heaven. He uses something else, like our hurts, pains, sufferings, etc. I'm not against what you said but yeah please do think about this. If there weren't pains and sufferings, we wouldn't be better, we wouldn't know if we're doing the right thing or the opposite of it. Pain both physical and emotional are useful for us, If God were here as a Man, I think He would spank us I mean not always with a use of a rod, at least with the use of His hands, I'm not a parent but I'm a product of spanking, without my mom having been a scary disciplinarian, my life would be miserable for I have no one to fear. As a child, one doesn't know what to do and what not to do, and there comes the parents to let them know when they've done wrong or not, how can a child possibly understand the scoldings of a parent when he/she doesn't yet know how to apply it in their lives? I mean the best way to teach someone both young and old is by pain, I read a book called "When Life Hurts by Philip Yancey" and there he talks about how God uses pain for us to learn things that we are not aware of, through pain we stop. Through pain we realize something, and its up to us both young and old to handle these pains whether for the good and the bad.

I was there. Though I'm not a parent, I understand both my parents and the young ones.

There is no Biblical support for God causing his children physical or emotional pain in order to correct them. Jesus never struck his disciples, and there are no scriptures in the New Testament commanding Christians to physically hurt each other as punishment. You are confusing intentionally inflicting pain with the natural consequences of our own actions. If I touch a hot stove, I get hurt. That does not mean that the stove intentionally hurt me, or that God caused me pain because I touched the stove, it was simply the result of my actions. God may use pain that we experience to teach us things, I know I have been through much pain in my life that I have learned many things from, but God did not CAUSE any of the pain I suffered, it was the result of my own actions, and from living in a fallen world.

You also confuse the idea of "fearing" God with actual fear of pain or punishment. Consider 1 John 4:18 "There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." God already took our punishment on himself, which is why there is no fear in his Love, because there is no longer the threat of punishment for our sins. The Bible says we are to obey out of LOVE, not out of FEAR. ""If you love me, you will obey what I command." "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." Rom. 13:10 This clearly defines the motivation God expects for obedience, it is not FEAR... we do not obey because we are afraid of punishment, we obey because we LOVE God and love others with his love in our hearts. He even went as far as to say that "good behavior" without love is worthless. 1Cor. 13

"As a child, one doesn't know what to do and what not to do, and there comes the parents to let them know when they've done wrong or not, how can a child possibly understand the scoldings of a parent when he/she doesn't yet know how to apply it in their lives?"

Look at the way the Lord disciplines his own children, by his Word and the leading of his Spirit in our hearts:

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. " 2 Tim. 3:16-17

It is absolutely and entirely possible to teach a child without the use of physical punishments, just like God teaches us. The difference is, it requires US to develop the fruit of the Spirit in our own lives, because it is not easy to discipline a child without patience, kindness, gentleness, etc. This is exactly where parents need to "take the log out of your own eye, then you can see better to take the splinter out of your child's eye". If you cannot discipline a child without resorting to physically assaulting him, then you need to reexamine your own level of maturity. This is not about getting "results", it is about how you treat "the least of these". God is more concerned with how an ADULT behaves towards a child than whether or not that adult can make the child do what they want. WE are the ones taking the test, not our children. They will take it when they get older, but for now, God is holding US up to scrutiny for our actions, because WE are the ones who are truly culpable for what we do. A child lacks the emotional and mental capacity to make fully informed and mature decisions.... so who is the more "guilty", the child, or the adult who can't control their own anger, frustration, irritation, pride, or other emotions that drive them to demand a higher level of performance than they, themselves, are willing to live up to? This is exactly the scenario posed in the parable of the wicked servant. His offense was extremely serious, yet he was not PUNISHED in any way. Then he went and found someone who had committed a relatively minor offense and insisted that he be punished to the fullest extent allowed by law. If God does not punish us, who are adults and fully responsible for our own actions, according to what we DESERVE, how is it acceptable for us to punish a child, who is NOT mature enough to be held accountable, in a much more severe fashion than we would ever allow ourselves to be treated? When is it EVER acceptable to hit you, as an adult as a form of punishment? If you break the law, will you be caned for it? Even in our earthly justice system we recognize the fact that physical punishment is not an acceptable method of disciplining or changing behavior.

"I mean the best way to teach someone both young and old is by pain, I read a book called "When Life Hurts by Philip Yancey" and there he talks about how God uses pain for us to learn things that we are not aware of, through pain we stop. Through pain we realize something, and its up to us both young and old to handle these pains whether for the good and the bad."

This idea is simply not supported by scripture or by Mr. Yancey's book. I read that book, it is actually very good, but you are misreading the intent. The idea that you can learn from pain is not the same as intentionally inflicting it in order to teach someone something. God may turn what the enemy means for evil to our good, and pain does serve a purpose in some ways, but God does not intentionally cause his children to suffer in order to teach them anything. The examples in Hebrews where pain is mentioned are directly connected to SELF-DISCIPLINE, not God punishing his children. The scripture in Hebrews 12 is talking about suffering for your faith, enduring religious persecution as a form of self-discipline. How does this in any way relate to hitting a child? That would be putting yourself in the role of the one doing the persecuting. You need to read the verses in their complete context, including the preceding chapter, to get an accurate idea of their meaning.

Life is painful enough without teaching a child that God wants them to suffer at the hands of those who are supposed to love and protect them. God helps and comforts us when we are in pain, he does not add to it.

Browse

Proverbs 29:15
Proverbs 29:17
Ephesians 6:1-4

Godly discipline will keep children from being dysfunctional later in life. We are told as Christian parents to train our children in the ways of the Lord and when he grows up, he will not depart from that training. Notice it says "train" not "teach." Many parents teach their children right from wrong, but have failed to "train" them to obey. Spanking is part of the training. Many parents yell and threaten their children, but never follow through with the proper punishment and therefore their children get their own way. A disciplined child will bring great delight to parents, while the child left alone will bring shame to the home.

You might want to spend a few minutes with a concordance before you start making up doctrine. The word "train" in Proverbs is "chanak", it literally means "to dedicate". The word for "in the way" is "derek", it indicates a direction. The word translated "he should go" literally means "mouth"... indicating verbal instruction. It in no way implies "training" in the sense you are using it.

Parents who resort to punishments to force their children to comply are not following the scriptures that teach us that obedience is not something that can be forced or coerced, but something that has to come voluntarily out of a deep, loving relationship with the Father. A child who is not DISCIPLED by his parents, who is not taught and instructed in the way of the Lord on a daily basis by the living example of his parents is the one who is going to be a burden and a shame... not because the child's behavior is so bad, but because it indicates that the parents were negligent in the one job God gives us, to communicate his character and love to our children. The very FIRST command is to LOVE GOD... if you do not teach your children how to love God, and to obey him as a result of this LOVE, then you are a failure, even if they grow up to be "good people". (1 Cor. 13... without love, good behavior is of no value) Hitting a child in NO WAY communicates the love of God or his character towards his children. God will NOT hit you or cause you pain in order to teach you, he will teach you through his WORD and his SPIRIT in your heart. "Thy WORD have I hid in my heart, that I might not sin against thee". There is absolutely no scriptural support for a God who inflicts pain in order to keep us from sinning. He is the Good Shepherd, who lays down his life for his sheep. He does not beat them, he guides and protects them and keeps them from harm. That is our example. The idea of hitting a child is completely against the character of God as described in the scriptures.

In Proverbs 13:24
"Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

The practical wisdom found in these verses in the book of Proverbs covers the subject of child rearing and corporal punishment. Children who are not properly disciplined, are among the most miserable of children. Unruly and spoiled children are not the blessings that the Bible says they should be to parents. When a child is given no boundaries, they feel lost. If they have been given boundaries, yet those boundaries are not maintained, it causes great harm to a child, as they will not only be in dangerous territory, they will also lose respect for authority. This is where we find so many of the children and youth of today. They are rebels, who not only disrespect authority, but openly defy all authority figures such as teachers, policemen, clergy, and their own parents. The blame rests upon the parents of these children, if they have not heeded the advice given in this and other verses found in Proverbs.

Definition of SPANKING:
Slap with one's open hand or a flat object, especially on the buttocks as a punishment.

Proverbs 22:15:
"Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him."

Proverbs 23:13-14:
"Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with the rod you will save his soul from Sheol"

First of all, discipline of children should begin at an early age, whenever a child begins to defy the parent. Remember the old saying, "He who spares the rod, spoils the child." Notice that the Bible says that all children have foolishness in their hearts. The Bible definition of a fool means one who is a rebel, so this is saying that all children have rebellion in them and when it surfaces, it is our duty as parents to drive it out of them. We are to do this by punishing them with a whack on the buttocks with a small reed-like rod. This rod could be a switch from a fruit tree branch or a willow tree branch or a small wooden spoon. It is not to be a large heavy rod or anything that would cause permanent physical damage. The purpose of a spanking is not to cause any lasting bodily harm, but to cause spiritual correction. A spanking should be swift and cause short lived pain that makes a point. That point is that the small pain they feel now will prevent them from feeling great pain by the act they are committing, which could cause them loss of their lives in some cases.

Some people say that all spanking is child abuse, but for me this is totally wrong. The real abuse to the child is not to spank them when they need correction. Of course, some parents, who themselves are out of control, can abuse their children by beating them in angry rages. This is child abuse, however, it does not justify doing away with spanking children if it is done properly, and for the right reasons. Parents who beat their children, need help themselves. They are sinful people and they not only will abuse their children by beating them, but will hurt them in other ways as well. Many times, these same children are left to go hungry and uncared for. They have no love. These kind of homes need the love of Christ so that the whole family can be healed. We are not to spank our children with uncontrolled anger, and thus hand out unjust punishment.

Proverbs 19:18:
"Discipline your son, for there is hope; do not set your heart on putting him to death."

Proverbs 22:6:
"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it."

"Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him."

The "rod" in Proverbs is symbolic, it represents parental authority. The second part of this verse bears this out... "diligent to DISCIPLINE him". The word "discipline" here is "muwcar", which is generally translated "instruction", as in Prov. 1:8 "my son hear the *muwcar* of thy father..." This does not indicate physical punishment, but rather teaching, instruction, verbal correction, admonition, and doctrine.

It should tell you something that your definition of "spanking" is not found anywhere in the Bible. In fact, it is not even close to the very scriptures so often quoted from Proverbs, which describe BEATING someone on the BACK with a literal ROD.

You may also want to recheck your sources... the phrase "spare the rod, spoil the child" comes from a poem by Samuel Butler and refers to sexual spanking. Not exactly a good parenting reference.

"Notice that the Bible says that all children have foolishness in their hearts. "

What that verse actually says is that foolishness is BOUND UP in the heart of a child... it is held captive, unable to do anything. It is not until they reach maturity that this "foolishness" is released. Careful instruction and correction during childhood will help drive away foolishness as a child matures.

"The Bible definition of a fool means one who is a rebel, so this is saying that all children have rebellion in them and when it surfaces, it is our duty as parents to drive it out of them. We are to do this by punishing them with a whack on the buttocks with a small reed-like rod. "

You just said that spanking is to be done on the buttocks by an open hand or flat instrument... where exactly do you get "reed like rod" out of that? And how exactly is foolishness driven out of ADULTS, or are children the only "fools"? Because the scriptures have many more references to adult fools than to children. So who gets to use the rod on YOU? Or are adults somehow exempt from these scriptures, even though the rest of the entire book is directly addressed to young men? (hence the references to drunkenness and prostitutes) Or perhaps only the verses supposedly directed at children are still valid, but the "rod for the backs of ADULT fools" is obsolete? I'd say that's cherry picking the scriptures, wouldn't you?

"It is not to be a large heavy rod or anything that would cause permanent physical damage. "


I would draw your attention to the case of Lydia Schatz, who was recently beaten to death by her parents with a small 1/4 inch plastic hose that was supposedly not large or heavy enough to cause permanent physical damage. They were following a philosophy very similar to what you are outlining... how do you explain the discrepancy between what you are saying the scripture teaches and what can actually happen when you hit a child with even a small stick? "Though you beat him, he will not die" does not hold true in real life if you use ANY form of literal "rod".

"That point is that the small pain they feel now will prevent them from feeling great pain by the act they are committing, which could cause them loss of their lives in some cases."

Then God must be a terribly negligent parent, because he has never done this to his own children. There is no example in the Bible of God treating his children like this on any kind of wide-scale, consistent basis. In fact, the opposite is true. He sent his children warning after warning, over a period of YEARS before he was finally forced to act, and then it was to punish, not to discipline or teach.

You seem to believe that spanking is "magic", that it somehow saves children from hell in a way that even the Blood of Christ cannot.... because otherwise the Blood would be sufficient to cover even a child's sins, and not just those of adults. What you are teaching is heretical and hypocritical, it denies the very basis of salvation, the fact that no amount of physical punishment will ever pay for our own sins. You aren't trying to discipline children, you are trying to play God, judging and passing out his punishments, when God refuses to punish you for yours. How can you justify this? Where is the person qualified to beat you for your sins and keep you out of Sheol?

Instead of showing our children the stripes Christ took on his own back to pay for their sins, you insist that children need to take stripes in their own flesh to pay for their own sins. "He was wounded for our transgressions..." even those of our children. How can you, who cannot see inside of your child's heart, presume to judge and punish them? "Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart".

Your philosophy is flawed and is contrary to the scriptures.

My parents are Christians and they used to use the rod often. Now, I know that my parents loved me but were deluded into a hegemony which made spanking ok. I have no ill fillings towards my parents for there misinterpretation of what was the correct thing to do because the whole of society at that time endorsed such behavior. However, for you to be claiming in this day and age that spanking (with a rod, no less!) is acceptable behavior of any parent leaves me to wonder why you can't come up with something more effective as spanking does not work. I was a continual pain in the butt for my poor parents until I finally left home and sorted myself out. If my parents had chosen other forms of discipline I know that things would have run a lot smother in our home.

you are SICK in the head